Curse

«Ripskin · Nov 03, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

[skill]Glyph Of Lesser Energy[/skill] Is the only true secondary profession skill I use. The sin skills look fun, but they don't help when I'm running low.

Lumenil · Nov 03, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarkin

you can have a all mesmer team... ... ... no... i belive... good skills all kown but... to weak... low self heal...

LOL

We have been doing all mesmer teams for years now, we was able to do almost anything, with only mesmers in our team: UW, FOW, some DOA areas, Duncan, HM, vanquishing... Come to a mesmer weekly meeting on Saturdays at 9 PM GMT in Deldrimor int 1 and you'll see by yourself.

arcady · Nov 03, 2007, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

[skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill] + [skill]Aegis[/skill] + [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] = ?

Yep.

That Glyph is a 1 second cast and a 30 second recharge.

Could have put a monk skill in there instead and just not overcast. If you cast those other two only when you need to cast them, you have plenty of energy for them already. Given that I need condition and hex removal, hit avoidance, damage reversal / blockage, a backup heal (ZB or LoD), and, at least in a PUG, a hard rez... I go for energy management by having a lot of it to start with, trying not to overcast, and keeping at least half of my skills at 5e - more if the build strategy of the moment lets me.

Oh, and I rarely ask anyone to bring self heals. When I Hero/hench only me and my hero monk have any healing. In PUGs, I can't control what the others bring, but I prefer to avoid PUGing with Wa/Mos for a reason...

Spazzer · Nov 03, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I mostly play Monks, and Divine Favor has no synergy with a secondary profession. I'd say they're at the bottom of the list.

I guess I'd have to say that Rangers have an easier time with finding secondary skills.

A11Eur0 · Nov 03, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

GoLE is good for LoD monks in the Deep spamming Heal Party for the tanks running into the rooms to gather aggro to the doors...in that case it's good in any organized team where the tank runs in to gather aggro.

Faer · Nov 03, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Yep.

That Glyph is a 1 second cast and a 30 second recharge.

And yet it's still considered excellent energy management by many high-end players who play various professions, including Monk. Imagine that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Could have put a monk skill in there instead and just not overcast. If you cast those other two only when you need to cast them, you have plenty of energy for them already. Given that I need condition and hex removal, hit avoidance, damage reversal / blockage, a backup heal (ZB or LoD), and, at least in a PUG, a hard rez... I go for energy management by having a lot of it to start with, trying not to overcast, and keeping at least half of my skills at 5e - more if the build strategy of the moment lets me.

Or, you could, like, have another Monk along for the ride and try some build synergy. That works too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Oh, and I rarely ask anyone to bring self heals. When I Hero/hench only me and my hero monk have any healing. In PUGs, I can't control what the others bring, but I prefer to avoid PUGing with Wa/Mos for a reason...

No comment.

RhanoctJocosa · Nov 03, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Mesmer definitely.

Tarkin · Nov 03, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumenil

LOL

We have been doing all mesmer teams for years now, we was able to do almost anything, with only mesmers in our team: UW, FOW, some DOA areas, Duncan, HM, vanquishing... Come to a mesmer weekly meeting on Saturdays at 9 PM GMT in Deldrimor int 1 and you'll see by yourself.

I not a mesmer hater i love mesmer skills ... everytime i working in powerfull mesmer builds... but i cant belive in you... pure mesmers cant have healing and we kown 1 boss in hard core areas can kill a team with 1 strike without prot... but if we can get 7 heros, trust me i ever save a place to a mesmer... and not for a stupid interupt mesmers... for a real damage mesmer...

but i read Thread again and understant the OP idea... in a 8 ppl team with mix classes the most depend from secondary is... monk...

Earth · Nov 03, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumenil

LOL

We have been doing all mesmer teams for years now, we was able to do almost anything, with only mesmers in our team: UW, FOW, some DOA areas, Duncan, HM, vanquishing... Come to a mesmer weekly meeting on Saturdays at 9 PM GMT in Deldrimor int 1 and you'll see by yourself.

All mesmer teams use secondary professions like monk and ritualist to heal. Those teams are dependant on their secondary.

I'd have to go with mesmer.

obastable · Nov 03, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Hrmm.

The only time I ever use a secondary profession on my PvE monk is if I'm capping an elite for the title track. I've never had any need of a secondary beyond that, including in end-game areas.

My brain and common sense are my e-management. Knowing when to use which skill & who to use it on is far superior to any help a secondary profession might offer.

No I do not run team builds that require my Heroes to bring self-heals.

Faer, in your example you're using a glyph with 30 sec recharge to cast another spell that also has a 30 sec recharge, so for half a minute 2 slots on your skill bar are useless. 2 disabled and useless skill slots for 30 seconds all to possibly (50% chance) block attacks for a whole 7 seconds. Granted, the spell has a party-wide effect and there are places where that can be beneficial, but it's a waste of a skill slot in PvE to use the glyph. In the time it takes that glyph to recharge and be useful again (or for Aegis to recharge and be useful again) you could have healed or prevented a few thousand points of damage with more efficient skills.

Symeon · Nov 03, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

Faer, in your example you're using a glyph with 30 sec recharge to cast another spell that also has a 30 sec recharge, so for half a minute 2 slots on your skill bar are useless. 2 disabled and useless skill slots for 30 seconds all to possibly (50% chance) block attacks for a whole 7 seconds. Granted, the spell has a party-wide effect and there are places where that can be beneficial, but it's a waste of a skill slot in PvE to use the glyph. In the time it takes that glyph to recharge and be useful again (or for Aegis to recharge and be useful again) you could have healed or prevented a few thousand points of damage with more efficient skills.

GoLE affects 2 spells. Used on Aegis + PS, you've saved 20 energy, and so have more energy to use on heals/small prots. Aegis is also energy management in itself since less damage taken = less energy needed to negate it. You don't need a bar full of low recharge spells to heal effectively.

Tyla · Nov 03, 2007, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

GoLE is good for LoD monks in the Deep spamming Heal Party for the tanks running into the rooms to gather aggro to the doors...in that case it's good in any organized team where the tank runs in to gather aggro.

LoD monks spamming heal party with GoLE?
why not just spam LoD??

Lord Natural · Nov 03, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Necro. Lot of 10-15e skills and poor e-management outside of SR.

obastable · Nov 03, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

GoLE affects 2 spells. Used on Aegis + PS, you've saved 20 energy, and so have more energy to use on heals/small prots. Aegis is also energy management in itself since less damage taken = less energy needed to negate it. You don't need a bar full of low recharge spells to heal effectively.

This is only in the instance that you get the 50% chance to block for Aegis, for a total of 10 seconds (assuming prot at 13). Sure, enchantments are useful, but they shouldn't be the basis of your build, the be-all-end-all decision maker of what else you put on your skill bar, or your last resort. While you can extend the duration of of the enchantment, your enemy can also remove it. Oops.. I guess I shouldn't use Faer's own arguements against his example.

You're right, Symeon, you don't need a bar full of low recharge spells to heal effectively, but a lot of the spells under the Healing attribute aren't enchantments and can't be stripped (thus are not potentially wasted energy or wasted space on the skill bar).

Maybe it's just me and maybe I'm missing something HUGE in the PvE game where it makes absolute perfect sense to use those 3 skills together on a regular basis, but try as I might I can't think of anything from over the past 2+ years of playing this game to indicate that.

Note that Aegis allows you to "block attacks". This only includes direct weapon attacks and attack skills specifically, and then only for party members within earshot. It doesn't block spells or non-attack skills/shouts/etc. If it does it's a bug or the spell needs rewording. Given that, why would I ever bother to tote around a glyph just to make a mostly unneeded spell more energy efficient?

Personally I don't think the trade off is worth it. I'd rather have 3 skills/spells on my bar that are more dependable, predictably useful, and both time & energy efficient.

Avarre · Nov 03, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

Sure, enchantments are useful, but they shouldn't be the basis of your build, the be-all-end-all decision maker of what else you put on your skill bar, or your last resort.

Did you just say that? Let me rephrase: you did not just say that.

Protection magic is more efficient in dealing with damage than healing is. A typical monk bar (one that isn't terrible) will have RoF, small prot (guardian/soa), large prot (ps/sb), and other utility enchantments such as veil/aegis/seed/stability depending on the area the build is run in.

Direct healing skills are less effective because they are largely one-dimensional. You target, you heal. Most protection skills however scale in value with how they are used- a rof can stop 140 damage for 5 energy when timed well, a spirit bond on a spike can give immense return healing.

Reducing damage is always better than healing it because of the comparative efficiency of skills - and that a few single skills (LoD) can be used to mop up the damage that gets through prot. Prot enchantments are the basis of monk builds, with conditional heals for maximized efficiency to clear up the rest (kiss on protted targets, lod, etc).

There are some monks (Tommy, for example) that ran Aegis without glyph under the reasoning that the amount of damage that could be prevented was management in itself. However, a great number of monks use glyph simply because it gives them more energy to play with under pressure.

Quru · Nov 03, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Monks. But only for Hard rez.

EDIT: And Ele for Glyph of Lesser energy. But it's not neede though.

DreamRunner · Nov 03, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

In PvP? Warriors and Monks.

In PvE, you can go without an secondary pretty easily with any profession.

Snow Bunny · Nov 03, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

This is only in the instance that you get the 50% chance to block for Aegis, for a total of 10 seconds (assuming prot at 13). Sure, enchantments are useful, but they shouldn't be the basis of your build, the be-all-end-all decision maker of what else you put on your skill bar, or your last resort. While you can extend the duration of of the enchantment, your enemy can also remove it. Oops.. I guess I shouldn't use Faer's own arguements against his example.

You're right, Symeon, you don't need a bar full of low recharge spells to heal effectively, but a lot of the spells under the Healing attribute aren't enchantments and can't be stripped (thus are not potentially wasted energy or wasted space on the skill bar).

Maybe it's just me and maybe I'm missing something HUGE in the PvE game where it makes absolute perfect sense to use those 3 skills together on a regular basis, but try as I might I can't think of anything from over the past 2+ years of playing this game to indicate that.

Note that Aegis allows you to "block attacks". This only includes direct weapon attacks and attack skills specifically, and then only for party members within earshot. It doesn't block spells or non-attack skills/shouts/etc. If it does it's a bug or the spell needs rewording. Given that, why would I ever bother to tote around a glyph just to make a mostly unneeded spell more energy efficient?

Personally I don't think the trade off is worth it. I'd rather have 3 skills/spells on my bar that are more dependable, predictably useful, and both time & energy efficient.

Have you ever monked?

Aegis = Unneeded? You do understand, that it's basically party wide 50% block rate so, that....you have to heal drastically less?

Your monk bar is probably Word of Healing, Orison, Healing Breeze, Heal Other Insert Crap Spell Here

On topic: Monks: Ranger for Nat Stride, Warrior for Shield Bash/D-stance, Mesmer for channeling, Ele for Glyph, and other more circumstantial skills.

arcady · Nov 03, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

Personally I don't think the trade off is worth it. I'd rather have 3 skills/spells on my bar that are more dependable, predictably useful, and both time & energy efficient.

My stance as well.

And like one of the others said, Aegis itself is energy management for what it blocks for the duration it does so. I also use Guardian to cover for it. I open with Aegis, and then apply Guardian, along with other Prots, to cover the recharge on a selective basis to those allies facing appropriate pressure. I reserve Zealous Benediction for crisis management - when my Prots have been miscast and someone is taking more than they should, or when someone is positioning wrong and taking more pressure than they should (like Olias last night - who kept going into melee - I think I had accidentally given him a touch attack when redoing all my hero builds the other day).

As for my enchants being stripped, there's a whole other way to look at that as well. If they're spending time and energy stripping my enchantments, that's time and energy they're not spending applying pressure to my team.

I rarely have energy problems. So I know what I'm doing works.

Keeping all 8 of my skills in primary profession has worked for me very well over the time I've played GW. It wasn't the attitude I started with, it was something I adopted as I learned the game more and started noticing what was working and what was failing in my efforts to get through. And for me, mixing it up led to less effective results more often than not. I reserve it for the exception, not the rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Or, you could, like, have another Monk along for the ride and try some build synergy. That works too.

Yes it does, and is what I do, especially when bringing my Heroes where I can ensure it. And is yet another reason to go pure monk.

Spazzer · Nov 03, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Y'all are off-topic.